Further Raven Guard List Analysis

So I need to come to some sort of conclusion on the changes I plan to make on my list after the LVO and DM3. I also plan to reply to the really interesting comments by Jjpwyrm in this post.

As mentioned in my last post the main issues I found with the list were problems with flyers, problems with intercepting Tau, and fragility of the vanguard. I concluded that there was little I could do about flyers, adding in a grav centurion squad might work versus intercepting Tau, and trying to squeeze in 3 more Vanguard would allow me to combat squad one of the units creating a naked 5 man unit who could eat over watch.

So, after long hours with battle scribe, I’ve come up with a couple of options.

The list I took last weekend was 

Talon Strike Force

Battel Demi-Company

Chaplin, bike

Tac Squad, melta, combi melta, Drop Pod, Locator Beacon

Tac Squad, melta, combi melta, Drop Pod, Locator Beacon

Tac Squad, melta, combi melta, Drop Pod, Locator Beacon

3 Man Bike Squad

Dev Squad, Drop Pod, Locator Beacon

Shadowstrike Kill Team

5 Scouts, Bolters

5 Scouts, Bolters

7 Vanguard, 2 Storm Shields, 2 Bolt Pistol and CCW, 3 Power Fist + Lightening Claw

7 Vanguard, 2 Storm Shields, 2 Bolt Pistol and CCW, 3 Power Fist + Lightening Claw

7 Vanguard, 2 Storm Shields, 2 Bolt Pistol and CCW, 3 Power Fist + Lightening Claw

Combined Arms Detachment

Techmarine, Bike

5 Scouts, CCW, Land Speeder Storm

5 Scouts, CCW, Land Speeder Storm

Drop Pod

Drop Pod

What I’m trying to do is create points for 2 things – first, swapping the naked dev squad in the demi company into a unit of 3 grav cents, and adding 3 more bodies to one of the Vanguard units. So I need to find 236 points! That’s going to be hard!

First things to go are the Land Speeder Storms. Next I could take out one of the tactical pods, and the special and combi weapon on that squad. Next to go would be the locator beacons on the other three pods. I could swap the CAD for the Flesh Tearers Strike Force, which means I only need to take one scout unit, saving an additional 55 points, giving me 230 points. Finally I can swap the Techmarine for a Sanguinary Priest.

With these changes it comes to 1851pts….! How irritating! I could swap one of the power first on the Vanguard for a lightening claw to get the points. The list then looks like this

Talon Strike Force

Battel Demi-Company

Chaplin, bike

Tac Squad, 

Tac Squad, melta, combi melta, Drop Pod

Tac Squad, melta, combi melta, Drop Pod

3 Man Bike Squad

3 Grav Cents

Shadowstrike Kill Team

5 Scouts, Bolters

5 Scouts, Bolters

7 Vanguard, 2 Storm Shields, 5 Bolt Pistol and CCW, 2 Power Fist + Lightening Claw, 1 double Lightening Claw

7 Vanguard, 2 Storm Shields, 2 Bolt Pistol and CCW, 3 Power Fist + Lightening Claw

7 Vanguard, 2 Storm Shields, 2 Bolt Pistol and CCW, 3 Power Fist + Lightening Claw

Flesh Tearers Strike Force

Priest, bike

5 Scouts, 

Drop Pod

Drop Pod

Drop Pod

So now I have the Cents coming down with the Vanguard to give an intercepting Tau army something to worry about, and a small 5 man Vanguard Squad to soak up over watch before the heavy hitters pile in. However, I’ve gained this at the expense of 5 Ob Sec units (the Tac’s Pod, and the 2 units of scouts in their Land Speeders). The only mobile Ob Sec unit I have now, is the bike squad with the Chaplin and the Priest. That bike squad has also lost what little combat punch it had, without the techmarine’s servo arm, I’ve also lost the ability to bring in the tac squads in a first wave of 3 pods, holding the scouts and the cents in reserve along with the Vanguard. Finally, I’ve lost the locator beacons on all the pods, which worked so well at the LVO.

So essentially, I’ve lost mobile Ob Sec and tactical flexibility for the Cent’s killing power and to make the Vanguard a little more durable. Hmmm…!

An alternative would be to put the standard CAD back in, swapping the scout squad for two 3 man bike squads in the troops slot. The problem would be I don’t have the points to then take the extra vanguard. The lsit would look like this

Talon Strike Force

Battel Demi-Company

Chaplin, bike

Tac Squad, 

Tac Squad, melta, combi melta, Drop Pod

Tac Squad, melta, combi melta, Drop Pod

3 Man Bike Squad

2 Grav Cents, one Heavy Bolter Cent

Shadowstrike Kill Team

5 Scouts, Bolters

5 Scouts, Bolters

7 Vanguard, 2 Storm Shields, 2 Bolt Pistol and CCW, 3 Power Fist + Lightening Claw

7 Vanguard, 2 Storm Shields, 2 Bolt Pistol and CCW, 3 Power Fist + Lightening Claw

7 Vanguard, 2 Storm Shields, 2 Bolt Pistol and CCW, 3 Power Fist + Lightening Claw

Combined Arms Detachment

Techmarine, bike

3 bikes

3 bikes

Drop Pod

Drop Pod

Drop Pod

This comes to 1,836pts. I needed to drop a grav cannon on one of the Cents to make it work.

The difference between this list and the last one is that I now have 3 mobile Ob Sec units (the 3 bike squads) at the expense of the 3 extra vanguard. So t he question – are the 3 extra Vanguard worth dropping for the mobile Ob Sec?

Jpwyrm’s commets were

·         Don’t I need reserve manipulation

·         What about running 2 units of 10 vanguard, rather than 3 of 7, saving some points by trimming the gear.

·         What about weapons on the Devs

·         Do I need the locator beacons?

Taking each in turn

·         Reserve Manipulation. This would be nice, but the minimum cost for this would be 70pts (bunker and comms relay). I couldn’t do this and include the Cents. Ultimately I think the ability to bring in the VV whenever I want, is so good, I don’t need a comms relay.

·         Vanguard. I did think about the Vanguard load out long and hard, and I think it’s is pretty optimal …. but I could be persuaded. I’ll discuss this further below.

·         I now have weapons on the Devs!

·         Locator Beacons. They are now out to find points, but I would really like to put them back in if I could. They  were invaluable for those games at the LVO when I didn’t have first turn, and didn’t want to risk bringing the Vanguard down turn one and scattering. However, now that I can bring the Vanguard down and deep strike off the podding scouts, I don’t think they are nearly as useful. Maybe one!

So, jp was spot on with most of his comments….but we need to talk about the Vanguard a little more.

I run the squads with 2 naked guys, 2 storm shields and 3 guys with power fists and lightening claws. My thinking is that this load out gives me enough ablative wounds, to maximise the value of the investment made in the power fists. Essentially, the naked guys are there to eat overwatch, and high initiative weapons in close combat, the storm shields are there to eat low AP wounds, and the killers are the guys with Power Fists. So, for example, I charge a Riptide – the naked guys eat the overwatch, the Storm Shield guys block the AP2 attacks at initiative 2, and the power fists kill it at I1. The Lightening Claw/Power Fist load out “only” costs 25pts – so essentially that’s 15pts for the Power Fist, and 5pts to give the power fist an additional attack! Bluntly I would pay 5pts for an additional attack on its own, but having the lightening claw also gives you the option to swing at I4 against things where you don’t need the Power Fist’s AP2 or S8.

More “sneakily” it also allows you to pull your punches – by this I mean using the lightening claw in circumstances where you don’t want the Vanguard to kill the unit you charge on the turn you charge, but in your opponents turn, so you can avoid a turn of shooting. So in the example above, rather than swing the Power Fists at I1, and kill the Riptide, leaving the unit exposed to devastating fire in your opponents turn, you could swing your claws at I4 (but more importantly AP3) do no damage to the Riptide, and then kill it in the next round of combat with the Power Fists (i.e. in your opponents turn, afterhe’s shot), leaving you free to charge something else in your turn. 

However, the big problem is attrition. If I lose a couple of naked guys to overwatch, and then a 1 or 2 Storm Shield guys to low AP weapons in combat – the Power Fist guys are pretty exposed.

Jp’s suggestion was that I take 2 units of 10, rather than 3 units of 7. The benefit this would have is being able to split the units into a unit of 5 naked guys, and a unit of 2 SS guys and 3 PF/LC. I could use the naked guys to draw overwatch. So rather than having 2 naked guys in each unit of 7 to eat overwatch, I have 2 units of 5 guys. You know what, that might just work. The unit of 5 guys could tie up more units, and there is a “stop loss” i.e. the maximum I can lose to overwatch is 5 naked guys, rather than a whole unit of Vanguard including the SS guys and the guys with Power Fists.  The down side is that it doesn’t really help with intercept – if the Tau player is smart, he will target the 5 man units with Storm shields and power fists.

Thoughts?