Infiltration - the argument continues!

I tried to post this as a reply to a comment to my last post but it was too long - so here it is as a separate post. To make sense of it you'll need to read it in conjunction with my last post on Infiltrating ICs conferring infiltrate on non infiltrating units. The comment was

"Sorry, but declaring people just straight wrong on this is not the way to do it, when the rules are actually very vague. People are only reading what they want to see.

Check the rules for dedicated transports, where it refers to a IC joining a unit before deployment. So yes, at the very least you can deploy in your transport via infiltrate with an IC that confers it.
What impact does this cause? 1 It refers to joining before deployment, 2, It breaks the rule you are so zealously quoting that there are only two way to join a squad.

Lets also look at Shrikes amendment that everyone likes to misread. For starters, it is from 5th ed, and was never changed. Secondly, it does not give him the ability to join a squad before deployment, despite what everyone wants you to believe. It says basically "shrike and any model in a unit chosen from codex space marines that he has joined before deplyment benefit from infiltrate"

Not that he can, but if he did, they would gain infiltrate, but how could he due to the rules? So we have yet another incident which eludes to joining before deployment."

 

My intended reply was

 

"It’s still pretty clear IMHO!

I think we can both agree that, to have infiltrate confer to the unit, the infiltrating IC must be attached to the non-infiltrating unit before infiltration takes place.

The IC rule on page 39 says

An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.        

This is quite clear. The only way an IC can join a unit before infiltration takes place, is by being deployed in coherency with it. However, if you deploy the non infiltrating unit, and then deploy the infiltrating IC in coherency with it, while  infiltrate confers, you can not then infiltrate because you have deployed before the “infiltration phase” of deployment. If you keep both units in reserve, then the “infiltration phase” of deployment has passed, and neither can infiltrate (they can outflank, but not infiltrate).

The key to getting it to work is finding something that says you can attach an IC to a unit before deployment. But before we get to that, such a rule would need to be very clear, as it would need to subvert the very clear rule on page 39. Also, bare in mind the basic versus advanced rules (page 7). To paraphrase, if there is a basic rule that applies generally, and an advanced rule which applies in specific circumstances that contradicts the basic rule, the advanced rule applies only to those circumstances. 

So to “get around” the attaching IC rule on page 39, would need something very clear, with a wider application than that attaching IC rule.  

You point to 2 things, the rules for deploying Dedicated Transports, and Shrike’s FAQ

 On page 121 of the book it says under the heading "Deploying Transport Vehicles"

Units can be deployed in Transport vehicles if you wish – simply declare to you opponent which units are embarked where as part of your deployment. However, if a unit is a Dedicated Transport, only the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined the unit) can deploy within it.

Is this not just an example of the first way that ICs can attach to a unit i.e. by being deployed in coherency with it, except in this example you deploy in coherency inside the transport? The only thing that might indicate otherwise, is the use of the past tense in the parenthesis I.e. “plus any Independent Characters that have joined the unit”. You might argue that the implication here is that, by using the past tense, the rule implies the IC has joined the unit before deployment.

I can see this argument, but struggle to accept it can be used to override a clear rule to the contrary. At best you might argue (on the basis of the “basic rule advanced rule” argument) that it allows an infiltrating character to attach to a non infiltrating squad before deployment, but only where they do so in a dedicated transport! Infiltrating Terminators in a Land Raider anybody?

Shrike’s FAQ says

                 “See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit

chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before

deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule.

To be fair, I do kinda see what you mean here. It’s badly worded, as it implies, although doesn’t specifically say, that Shrike can join a unit prior to deployment. IMHO, there are 2 ways to interpret this. A strict interpretation is that, because Shrike can’t join a unit prior to deployment, he can not confer infiltrate on that unit and the rule has no meaning. However that can’t be the intention. If you interpret the rule with its purpose in mind, the only logical way to square it with the rule that characters can only join units in reserve by being deployed with them, is to interpret it as an exception to the general rule, and rule that Shrike can be attached to a unit prior to deployment.

The alternative is to use a poorly worded FAQ (which came out in 5^th) to change the clear wording of the BRB, and that can’t be right!

So perhaps I can agree with you that the position is slightly less clear than I originally thought, but not much!"

EYIG